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周末挖坑: 今天的医院小故事 (逆风/老军医 et al)
作者:USMedEdu
发表时间:2009-12-13
更新时间:2009-12-13
浏览:1214次
评论:1篇
地址:140.
::: 栏目 :::
现代医学vs“中医”
社会、艺术与医学
住院/FELLOW单位
中外医学网站精选
国内外医学交流信息
生物医学人物
力刀美加医学教育专
临床见习/实习/义工
医学生理学诺贝尔奖
医生助理(PA)职业
医学书籍照片及图谱
社会与医学瞬间定格
医学典故/医史杂谈
USMLE复习和考试
申请和面试住院医生
住院医生生活和工作
FELLOWSHIP
医生就业、工作及生
医学科普及问题解答
美加医学院申请/MCA
中美医学临床教育比
医学新进展及新闻
社会医学伦理

发信人: againstwind (逆风而行), 信区: MedicalCareer
标 题: 今天的医院小故事,就当周末挖坑吧
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Sat Dec 12 19:24:09 2009, 美东)

这个月on consult,今天正忙的时候,看见rehab又consult了,我一看HgbA1c才6点多
,而且明天就要出院了,心想这也好意思consult阿,说句题外话,不知道是不是就是
这个医院的特色还是大型medical center都这样,到处consult,也不知道他们自己的
resident是干嘛的,我要是敢这样abuse consult,早被我原来医院的attending生撕了。

话归正题,我打电话去给那个put in consult的医生,好言相劝,这个病人outpatient
follow就行啦,完全不用我兴师动众地。谁知道她还质问我hgbA1c6.8难道是正常的么
?我也只能很professional地说,现在按照ADA guideline,我们不用和hgba1c做诊断
标准,你们连血糖都没测,诊断个啥。这个完全是可以在门诊解决的事情。

电话那端听声音估计是个attending,又问我,你是fellow?我说是,她说,我是dr.某
某,看我没反应,郁闷无比,又说你在这里多长时间了,我呵呵笑了一下。她又说,你
知道某某连锁饭店么,我说不知道,她估计在那里撞墙,说,这个病人是那个连锁饭店
的老总.

wow,我生平最容不得的事情,就是作为一个医务人员,因为病人的权力金钱,而用这
种阿谀的样子为病人服务,让我对她最后仅存的一点尊重都没有了。在国内工作的时候
,要被迫轮转干部病房,我情愿主动申请去急诊值班。没想到事隔多年,竟然在这里看
见一个。

我鼻子里哼了一下,说so?

那个医生愤然说,you don't have to see the consult if you don't want to。

我说 i see consults only because they need to be seen, if you think that
patient really needs to be seen, i will be glad to see him, and i will tell
the patient my honest opinion and same thing will be written in chart.
那个主治医生挂了我电话,嘿嘿。

后来我主治医生估计听到什么风声,打电话给我说,你去看了那个consult了么?我说
没有,他呵呵笑了一下。我说你去看了,他说没有,我们就互相呵呵笑了一下。

其实我知道在真正的社会里生存,人是需要被迫弯腰的,但是在我们这个职业里,我觉
得还是应该have some respect to ourselves。可能人家会觉得我白白得罪人,不值得
,没办法,每个人都有自己的一点点bottom line吧。


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※ 来源:·WWW 未名空间站 海外: mitbbs.com 中国: mitbbs.cn·[FROM: 24.26.]



发信人: hemocell (老军医), 信区: MedicalCareer
标 题: Re: 今天的医院小故事,就当周末挖坑吧
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Sat Dec 12 19:36:44 2009, 美东)

风妹妹还是悠着点,现在毕竟还是fellow,如果自己是attending又是另外一回事了。
美国医院里面politics比中国一点都不少。
我们病理科经常有frozen section完全没有适应症的,我看attending如何跟手术医生
打交道也是一种很有意义的学习。我们曾经有一个肩部atypical lipomatous tumor,
切下来脂肪和皮肤要我们做冰冻,我很直接跟attending说这个没有适应症,而且我没
法冰冻脂肪组织。但是最后我们还是做了,也是碰到你这样类似的特殊情况。
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※ 来源:·WWW 未名空间站 海外: mitbbs.com 中国: mitbbs.cn·[FROM: 74.178.]



发信人: scrub2008 (jobsmac), 信区: MedicalCareer
标 题: Re: 今天的医院小故事,就当周末挖坑吧
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Sat Dec 12 19:57:48 2009, 美东)

这个社会本来就没有公平的东西,有权有势的肯定会得到特殊的照顾。这个也是我们无
法改变的。
呵呵,有些rehab的医生水平的确有问题,比如昨天值班spinal cord的病人RAT call了
,我去看病人,明显pulmonary edema,而年长的attending却说病人dry需要more fluid
.后来在我的劝导下他才同意给lasix.
关于consult还是要看attending,有的attending喜欢consult各个service.我大部分是
和fellow电话讨论一下,除非是非叫不可的GI bleed啥的。而且一般都是早晨call 他
们,而不是拖到下午。他们最烦的是下午4点半左右给他们打电话。我觉得在大学医院
作为一个intern,要建立好和各个fellow的良好关系。

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※ 来源:·WWW 未名空间站 海外: mitbbs.com 中国: mitbbs.cn·[FROM: 67.173.]



发信人: againstwind (逆风而行), 信区: MedicalCareer
标 题: Re: 今天的医院小故事,就当周末挖坑吧
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Sat Dec 12 20:02:20 2009, 美东)

写写老军医提点,赫赫。
其实做fellow反正就两年,以后我知道肯定不会留在这儿,所以才敢,反正有上面的主
治医生撑腰,以后自己开业,就真的要所谓五斗米折腰了,一声叹息。。。



发信人: againstwind (逆风而行), 信区: MedicalCareer
标 题: Re: 今天的医院小故事,就当周末挖坑吧
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Sat Dec 12 20:05:08 2009, 美东)

对方一点也不为难,那个主治医生电话里自己说,病人自己不想看,想回到自己医生那
里follow,是那个主治医生主动提出来让内分泌来看看,拿我们做人情呢。恶心死了。
【 在 clamchowder (DDD) 的大作中提到: 】
: 其实对方也挺为难。



发信人: againstwind (逆风而行), 信区: MedicalCareer
标 题: Re: 今天的医院小故事,就当周末挖坑吧
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Sat Dec 12 20:09:50 2009, 美东)

rehab的一个住院医生这个月跟着我轮转,来一天缺一天,估计后来的水平都不怎么样
,赫赫。

说道intern根fellow的关系,确实挺好玩的,很多intern打电话给我的时候,会先说,
我是joe,mary,jack,就是那个某天开会坐在你边上的,就是那天我跟你轮转门诊的,
一上来就套近乎,赫赫,美国孩子挺喜欢搞这套,咱么中国人老实啊,其实我这个人对
住院医生特别NICE,知道他们忙,都自己put in orders,然后再page他们跟他们说一下
。大家都不易阿



发信人: usmle (), 信区: MedicalCareer
标 题: Re: 今天的医院小故事,就当周末挖坑吧
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Sat Dec 12 20:23:01 2009, 美东)

说来说去都是钱啦,有时有的病人都不知道为什么要收进来,attending说他有好保险
,哦,那就收进来从头到脚查一遍吧。苦了resident又要写一堆东西。我想接consult
的specialist也是希望consult多多益善吧,只是苦了fellow了。
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※ 来源:·WWW 未名空间站 海外: mitbbs.com 中国: mitbbs.cn·[FROM: 66.75.]



发信人: scrub2008 (jobsmac), 信区: MedicalCareer
标 题: Re: 今天的医院小故事,就当周末挖坑吧
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Sat Dec 12 20:26:42 2009, 美东)

哈哈,我也很喜欢搞这套的,我们的fellow基本都记住我的first name了。如果fellow
对你的印象不错,一般会诊来的很快。因为我们心内有2个中国fellow,每次找他们都
是15分钟就到。你真的很nice,我们这得fellow没有人下oreder的,都是要我们自己下
。记得有个GI的fellow在电话里跟我的intern yell,我马上就找我的attending,我的
attending又找他谈话,后来他打电话来道歉。这个人脾气出名的坏,没人喜欢他。



发信人: hemocell (老军医), 信区: MedicalCareer
标 题: Re: 今天的医院小故事,就当周末挖坑吧
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Sat Dec 12 20:28:20 2009, 美东)

我们医院这个page system很有意思,一输入pager ID,就会显示你PGY多少,所以每次
打电话接电话都能感觉到级别摆在那里,要是PGY比我低的打电话来,多半都很谦虚,
fellow打电话来都牛哄哄的。有一次一个GI fellow 要 cryoprecipitate 我没给他,
他马上态度极为恶劣,吵了几句就说 give me you attending's number,我第二天跟
attending 说这事,attending 说他对我很谦虚啊,还跟我说要跟你解释一下他态度不
好的事情呢,kao!
我觉得你这事,第一对方那头病人不急,第二你这边自己主治医搞定了,你办得很漂亮。
病理这边有的attending的态度就是,我们是为临床医生服务,不论他们要什么,都给
。我做attending了肯定不是这个态度。


发信人: USMedEdu (US_CMGs), 信区: MedicalCareer
标 题: Re: 今天的医院小故事,就当周末挖坑吧
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Sun Dec 13 16:20:51 2009, 美东)

机密所言有理。

在当FELLOW时,遇到不讲理的ATTENDING还是当心些为好,没必要给自己设置麻烦。
有时,你不知他/她背后的关系和政治因素,得罪了小人,很是麻烦。就是你的直接
医生甚至椅子都会感到为难有时只有让你牺牲。医院里,和社会其他行业一样,有
时,POLITIC是很黑的。没道理可讲。

这种事儿,最好还是推给上级医生为好。你有推的责任和义务,何必强给自己揽个
绳套?多找个麻烦和烦恼?

象外科医生要求冰冻但根本与手术无关这类事,在病理很常见,FELLOW根本不要与
医生过不去,让ATTENDING去打交到,若病理医生牛过外科的,他自然会让那个医生
知道:不必要冰冻让他很不高兴,浪费他的时间也浪费了材料,增加了费用;若牛
不过外科的他也只好做了。这也取决于外科医生和病理医生之间的平素关系、之间
地位和实力势力等。

机密说得低度脂肪肉瘤,外科要求冰冻这事,俺这里也有,但当值病理医生不是这个
专科的,所以未能拒绝。而我们专科若是当值,就可以当即告诉外科:没意义。不
做!趁机给他们一些教育--关于冰冻的适应证等,甚至可以吓唬他们浪费了标本让
可能现实病变的部分被冰冻消耗,常规反而无标本可确诊用了。给他们点COLOR SEE
SEE。一般外科专科医生对专科训练的病理医生还是言即必从的。

在你还没有建立自己坚实的CREDIT和良好的关系网之前,还是先低调做稳妥。


dok

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共有1条评论
1   [DrNewbie 于 2010-11-03 23:39:59 提到] [FROM: 98.]


力刀评注:

这是个很有趣的案例,在住院医生面试时时有发生和遇到或类似的场景。这种情况
的应对常常是面试者有意无意地从你反应回答、面部和BODY语言来考察你的反应能
力和个性特点及成熟的素质。表现得好和应答从容合适到位可以让面试者大为开心
或对你留下深刻良好印象,你就得了高分;而相反,应答错误或不当,轻的引起对
方不快或疑虑,严重的,可以说立即被面试者在心里判了死刑--你出局了!

这个CMG提出了个很好得问题,在我所印的下列讨论里,ChiUSMD和Dojo的发言非常
出色,值得大家认真思考和进一步充分讨论,学习提高自己的面试及对这样问题得
脑筋急转弯能力,以及自己的为人处事成熟能力培养。

值得指出的是:那个在麦地喋喋不休到处卖弄她的所谓“英语”并爱好给人改错的
蠢人的发言更充分地反映出其愚蠢和无知,她的所谓良好英语在她的愚蠢脑袋支配
下成了砸她自己脚的石头。此人在麦地已经贩卖了无数的垃圾和错误得东西。我实
在无法忍受这种蠢人无休无止地误导CMG,所以不惜大开杀戒痛砍此ID,得罪了麦地
版规和版主。

说来是坏事,但这也成就了俱乐部的诞生,这里不会再有这种苍蝇和垃圾的泛滥横
行而不受制止。

*****************************************************************************

发信人: kaye ([email protected][email protected]~埋底海豚~热爱游泳), 信区: MedicalCareer
标 题: [合集] 面试碰到的尴尬事
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Tue Nov 2 02:42:11 2010, 美东)


☆─────────────────────────────────────☆

ZXCVBNMWUJI (无极) 于 (Sun Oct 31 22:38:21 2010, 美东) 提到:

面试碰到的尴尬事:

我的第一个面试的一个面试官是一个看上去很和蔼的老先生,进去后他一上来就笑眯眯
的问,你是怎么认识Dr.XXX的?Dr.XXX是我到美国后的第一个老板。我说,您认识他?
他微笑地点头,说Dr.XXX跟他一起在XXX做的resident。我于是精神为之一振,把我当初
出国如何联系Dr.XXX到他那儿做POSTDOC给绘声绘色了一遍,末了还加了一句类似“He
is the nicest person I've ever met.”之类的评论。面试官耐心听我说完,然后仍
然笑眯眯地说:“Well, I was not getting along with him very well at that
time.”然后就是blah blah blah blah.我当场差点晕倒。

☆─────────────────────────────────────☆

DrNewbie (NN) 于 (Sun Oct 31 23:33:50 2010, 美东) 提到:

You could have said back, Ohh, he must have changed quite a bit.
Or he only gets along well with suck-ups. I jam him up real good.

【 在 ZXCVBNMWUJI (无极) 的大作中提到: 】

☆─────────────────────────────────────☆

fionaww (加州无鱼) 于 (Mon Nov 1 00:00:52 2010, 美东) 提到:

第一句还好,第二句就不行啦。万一人家说,感情你是suck-up阿,不然人家怎么看上
你,把你从国内招来呢?不更晕倒了?


【 在 DrNewbie (NN) 的大作中提到: 】
: You could have said, Ohh, he must have changed quite a bit.
: Or he only gets along well with suck-ups.

☆─────────────────────────────────────☆

DrNewbie (NN) 于 (Mon Nov 1 00:03:49 2010, 美东) 提到:

hehehehe.

Third one: Am I such a charming person that I get along so well with him? Or Am I personable that we get along so well.

Fourth one: You should be happy with my people skills now right? Since I can get along with this snob.

If you love my answers and you get my sick humor, please join my club:

Pre_resident_english_corner.

☆─────────────────────────────────────☆

DrNewbie (NN) 于 (Mon Nov 1 01:25:54 2010, 美东) 提到:

The rest are for professionals only. No imitation by amateurs.
The 1st is witty. The 2nd is humor.


☆─────────────────────────────────────☆

dojo (麦地里的豆角) 于 (Mon Nov 1 20:34:37 2010, 美东) 提到:

楼上大哥,你是来搞笑的还是来做广告的?你的这些自以为幽默的答案不是too judgemental ("he must"...lol) 就是自我吹捧。

这个情况下,面试官故意不在开始的时候就说合不来,而是在等楼主说了一大堆以后才
说,其实就是想看楼主遇到尴尬时的反应。象楼上大哥这种回答,把球踢回去,反让面
试官尴尬,我以为不好。我的建议是回答"oh, sorry to hear about that" 就行了,
最多再加一句"I don't know why he treats you and me differently",把这话题带
过就得了。Dr.XXX或者任何一个普通人都不可能跟所有人都合得来,这本是正常现象,
何须画蛇添足

☆─────────────────────────────────────☆

ChiUSMD (治病救热) 于 (Mon Nov 1 20:56:20 2010, 美东) 提到:

I agree. I assume you are a cute girl, and probably got a high remark from
him, otherwise he won't say this political incorrect thing. Go back ask your
boss whatever he said is true or not, then Send him a nice followup email
and make up something 拍一下马屁.

if your boss can send him a short email, 100% you are in or prematched.
My personal experience you will be ranked very high by that program. 美国人的尊师是骨子里的

☆─────────────────────────────────────☆

sfkitty (meow) 于 (Mon Nov 1 21:12:16 2010, 美东) 提到:

这真的是个需要脑筋急转弯的问题,我觉得理想的答案是结合NN和豆角的智慧。“sorry to hear that" ,加上适当的表情(让面试官觉得你的确 feel sorry about it, 而不是随口说说),再加上 “well, I guess he must have changed a lot“, 然后以一个beautiful smile to wrap it up。



☆─────────────────────────────────────☆

dojo (麦地里的豆角) 于 (Mon Nov 1 21:28:20 2010, 美东) 提到:

对的,表情要搭上。但这个must就免了,我对NN第一个答案不满意的就是这个must,显
得好象你多知道Dr.XXX的过去似的。你用"I guess"就对了。

说到底,我觉得这个回马枪问题固然尴尬,但老实应对,或者就是尴尬在那儿傻笑没有
答案,也比表现出自大和judgmental要好,这些性格可是要命的。尤其在正式面试问答
的时候,玩幽默是玩火。

☆─────────────────────────────────────☆

kaye ([email protected][email protected]~埋底海豚~热爱游泳) 于 (Mon Nov 1 23:09:01 2010, 美东) 提到:


dojo(豆角)和chiusmd的分析都很有道理,谢谢!
个人认为是这个问题的正解吧。

☆─────────────────────────────────────☆

ChiUSMD (治病救热) 于 (Mon Nov 1 23:45:44 2010, 美东) 提到:

The old people always have some 童心,he tried to say "got you", just be his
way and do something satisfy his joke. Now matter how smart you are, just
pretend "he got you".

"oops" then smile, or slightly 夸张一下,any other words might turn the
table completely opposite.
American would anwer: "you are good" or "you got me".

在中国,就自罚杯酒。
中美情况差不多,就是不能充大拿。
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1 [DrNewbie 于 2010-11-02 14:27:31 提到][删除][修改]
Does it matter whether he has changed or not? NO! The best way is to switch gears right away with a neutral, courteous comment. 'Sorry to hear that' is NOT nice at all. Either is 'u got me'. You really have no idea what happened between these two. Could be something nasty. Or his reply could be just a joke. Either way, it is best not to get involved. Along this line, there is no reason to be 'SINCERELY' sorry for it. The 'sorry' line can be interpreted in a bad way: 'You are sorry because I am an ass?'. Better say something neutral without offending either side. 'You got it' works only when he was really joking. What if he was serious? It would be even more awkward.

There isnt any good answer for this awkward situation. Only an immature person would give you a hard time like this. If a person reply in a courteous way, he wins votes. My answer shows integrity, honor and wit. It wins respects from others. The best dealing with this situation is a polite short answer and a quick switch to other topics.

The beauty of my reply is that it does NOT offend either party. Of course, the tone and your body language determines how the msg is delivered and how it will be received.

'"I don't know why he treats you and me differently" could be taken as very offensive. Right? 'It is because I am an ass?'


2-4 are for laughs only. Hope everyone here knows when to chuckle on a joke.

All you can brag is how other people drooling over your job. How pathetic.

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4 [DrNewbie 于 2010-11-02 13:44:06 提到]
Ur foul mouth cost your job already. You just never learn. You will lose
your job again if you dont know when to hold back your filthy mouth.

You can only take pleasure in getting even by your bragging how the wife of
the boss who fired you left him. You are just plain sick.

You are nobody compared with your peers.

Even a monkey can get a score of 50 by throwing darts on a board. So you
think you are smart with scores of 70s? You just got lucky. Period.
Nothing to be proud of.

Talk to anyone who got scores of 70s and ask them whether you just got lucky
or it just doesnt matter. Dont use one case to counter me. Lets talk
about trend or stats.

Your numerous scum filled posts have been deleted by BanZhu. You were so
out of line that even BanZhu was ashamed of you and deleted your mean post
about your ex-boss right after you posted it.

There are many precedents of accomplished people turning into monsters in
their senior years When you were biting every bystander on the street, I
suddenly realized its not me, it is you.

Yes, there are plenty of very smart yet generous, decent people here.

They shoot for much higher goal than you. With your lousy 70s score, no
wonder the best advice you gave to them is to take the less satisfying
prematch. Because you could only get lucky once.

So stop misleading people by using you as an example.

To exclude me from getting info on the medi board, you tried to drag
everyone into ur private club. It just shows how childish you are. Only a
sick person would devise such an evil plan. Even your buddies think you
have gone too far and opened ur private club for public viewing.

You are just a plain sick old man.

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4 [snowfox01 于 2010-11-02 17:25:32 提到] [FROM: 134.74.]
Dr.Newbie:Please be nice to this old man。
难道你没看见你把他生命中唯一的支柱----收集各种贴子,然后大言不惭的copy&post 到自己的网页。给打碎了。同时,他在麦地的“一手遮天” 用那二十年前的狗屁经验来误导新人,也让你给揭穿了。我能理解他的恼羞成怒。他也没几天了,就让他乐呵乐呵吧。

他的英语很好。中国人特别是我们河南人一听就懂。 像“welcome u join my club" 和his is a very unique 8-gua I enjoy to read”还有“I'm sure there you will get more benefits=我坚信在这里你将得到更多的好处。”多么容易的“直”译呀
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5 [DrNewbie 于 2010-11-02 23:00:52 提到]

His best English is:

Bless the God. No wonder people call him the GodFather.
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1 [DrNewbie 于 2010-11-03 23:04:34 提到][删除][修改] [FROM: 98.119.]
Reply to the attached comment.

"Must" is perfect here. "May" is NOT.

Would anyone use suck-ups, jam-up in a formal interview as in Joke #2? Would this be a clue that it is a joke? Would anyone use snob in Joke #4?

The 'Sorry' line could be interpreted in the wrong way. It is Not like you say sorry when some1 is sick.

Read my reply please before you comment. MadDoc initially made the club private. Only under the protests from the righteous people who think he has gone too far, he made it public a few days later.

Because I use 'real world' examples for English writing practice, private club is best suited for this purpose. A couple of thugs on medi routinely harass me for correcting their English. Btw, your English is superb. Thats why I thought you would want to help us. But you refused. I am truly sorry for this.

Some people get dark humors. Some dont. It is just a matter of personal tastes. Yes, many did think it was funny.

Clearly, you have got the bad influence from MadDoc. You had very lousy attitude with your LOLs towards my posts. You are smart enough to have got into a medical school. But your lack of manners will hurt your personal and professional life. Doc is a prime example. Hope you dont follow his path.
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2 [dojo 于 2010-11-03 22:31:32 提到][删除] [FROM: 71.163.]
Okay, now you say #2-4 are for laughs only, why didn't you say that in your originial post? You could see that fionaww challenged your #2 answer, but you did not tell her you were kidding. Instead you gave two more answers "for laughs", but did any one actually laugh in that thread, before I responded? Your humor is really sick.

I made it clear that your #1 answer is fine except that you shall not say "must". "Maybe he has changed a lot" is an okay answer, but how could you use "must"?

Your comment on my "sorry to hear that" shows that you don't even understand what "sorry" means here. It is a very common, sympathetic response to any kind of misfortune. If you ever tried to describe something unfortunate in your life to an American, you should have heard this sentence before. The sympathetic American saying this would never ever think that he is sorry because you are an ass. Your thinking is ridiculous.

Finally, your conspiracy theory "To exclude me ... you tried to drag everyone into ur private club" really makes me sick, even though I was never a fan of Lao Dao. Lao Dao's club is PUBLIC, everyone in the world can read it, and I joined it on my own without Lao Dao's any email. YOUR club is PRIVATE, and YOU sent me email twice to try to drag me into ur club.

2 [dojo 于 2010-11-03 22:31:32 提到][删除] [FROM: 71.163.]
Okay, now you say #2-4 are for laughs only, why didn't you say that in your originial post? You could see that fionaww challenged your #2 answer, but you did not tell her you were kidding. Instead you gave two more answers "for laughs", but did any one actually laugh in that thread, before I responded? Your humor is really sick.

I made it clear that your #1 answer is fine except that you shall not say "must". "Maybe he has changed a lot" is an okay answer, but how could you use "must"?

Your comment on my "sorry to hear that" shows that you don't even understand what "sorry" means here. It is a very common, sympathetic response to any kind of misfortune. If you ever tried to describe something unfortunate in your life to an American, you should have heard this sentence before. The sympathetic American saying this would never ever think that he is sorry because you are an ass. Your thinking is ridiculous.

Finally, your conspiracy theory "To exclude me ... you tried to drag everyone into ur private club" really makes me sick, even though I was never a fan of Lao Dao. Lao Dao's club is PUBLIC, everyone in the world can read it, and I joined it on my own without Lao Dao's any email. YOUR club is PRIVATE, and YOU sent me email twice to try to drag me into ur club.
 
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