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小德体力迷团
[版面:网球][首篇作者:dpg] , 2013年01月30日12:32:23 ,1546次阅读,33次回复
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dpg
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发信人: dpg (肖浪--君子不党), 信区: Tennis
标  题: 小德体力迷团
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed Jan 30 12:32:23 2013, 美东)

说小德有doping嫌疑的依据是,小德2010年之后体力突然好了,但是什么依据说他体力
突然好了呢?有没有数据做依据呢?其实除了他成绩突然好了之外,没有数据说他体力
好。成绩好了是因为他本来技术就在那里,一个心理因素,一个是饮食引起的过敏因素
,而找到所谓过敏因素其实很大程度也在心理上给小德以暗示,就是他从前总差那么一
口气,其实是心理有些小脆弱,现在心理上找到所谓的“原因”,突破了,然后就闯过
去了。
TT上有个thread,我觉得还是比较有说服力的,大家如果要批评就针对这个thread进行
批判,不要用什么其实大家心里都清楚来暗示好像所有人都同意蛰伏期过后运动员成绩
变好就是doping相关,我就不那么认为。纳豆伤退是因为吃药怕查出了,小德一直在打
是因为吃药体力变好,没查出来是因为吃的要太高级了,还没有上禁药list。这样的话
,不管你是不是坚持在打,都是因为吃药,我看这么推下去,离凡是自己不喜欢的运动
员,就都是吃了药的,这样结论就不远了。当然,bbs本来就是很多人都蒙着脸,所以
说话不用负责任,想怎么说就怎么说呗,特别是自己不爽的时候,说点泄泻私愤的话,
更加不需要负责任了。

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=412049

Dispelling Djokovic myths
EDIT: Meant to put this in player discussion.. oops.

Ok I'm writing this because over the past year I've kept posting the same
facts over and over again in an attempt to dispell certain myths about
Djokovic that people have carved in stone and now refer to rather than look
back at said facts. This mainly relates to Novak's physical issues and
retirements etc.

The myth-
Novak was a weakling who could not last a 5th set

look at these stats here -

http://www.matchstat.com/PlayerInjuries/5992

You will actually see that NONE of Novak's retirements so far have occured
in the 5th set of a match. The closest thing is his retirement in the 4th
set of the AO against Roddick. In fact more than half of the retirements
came in the 2nd set of the match. One came at 6-6 in the first set, which
would also rather dispell the myth that he only quits when he feels he can't
win the match. He also quit whilst 2 sets to 1 up against Davydenko.

On the other hand look at his record when the match DID go to 5 sets. It's
15-5 (to put this in perspective, 5 set warrior Nadal is 15-4, and overall
novak is 7th on the list of all time reliability) Only 3 of these 5 set wins
have come since the start of 2011, meaning prior to his remarkable
improvement he was still 12-5 in 5th sets, and remember he didn't retire in
any of those 5 losses.

stats here http://www.atpworldtour.com/Reliabil...reer-List.aspx

Furthermore look at the stats for a few tournaments. take Wimbledon 2007
where these were 4 back to back matches for 20 year old Novak -

R64 Delic 6-3 3-6 6-3 7-6 (2h 19mins)
R32 Keifer 7-6 6-7 6-2 7-6 (3h 39mins)
R16 Hewitt 7-6 7-6 4-6 7-6 (4h 12mins)
QF Baghdatis 7-6 7-6 6-7 4-6 7-5 (5hours)

He then retired against Nadal at 1 set all and a break down in the 3rd, but
those were pretty tough matches for a so called weakling to make it through.
There are also several other long matches around this time and earlier,
including his final set tiebreak match vs Stepenek at the US Open in the 2nd
round 2007 (6-7 7-6 5-7 7-5 7-6).

Then there's the match in Madrid 2009, a match which went 4 hours for 3 sets
of tennis where Novak was standing at the end, just unable to take any of
the match points he had. That year after the retirement in Australia,
Djokovic went on to play nearly 100 matches, and not withdrawing form any
events on his schedule, something which every other top player failed to do
- they all had to skip events. Djokovic reached 5 masters finals, but only
won Paris at the end of the season (beating nadal on the way) when everyone
else was getting tired despite Novak having played more matches. He also won
Basel just prior to this beating Federer. His tiredness towards the end of
the season apparently caused him shoulder problems and prompted him to
change service motion which then ruined his 2010 season, where he spent too
much energy just scraping wins (see his Dubai win that year where he was
awful but ground it out) in my opinion, this had a big effect on him going
backwards physically from an impressive 2009 (I think he had hired Muster's
old fitness coach that year)

Now here's the thing. When has Novak had serious injuries, keeping him out
of the game? Most of his issues have come out of nowhere in one match. In my
opinion, Novak has been a bit of a hypercondriac, when things are going
hard sometimes he's had a habit of thinking "I'm finished" or if he's
hurting he'd overreact to that and let his mind make it worse. We know with
a strong mind you can push through the pain barrier and move towards your
goal, you just need to be disciplined and focused. We also know that your
mind can play tricks on you and make you think you're feeling better or
worse than you really are. The mind is a very powerful thing and has a huge
effect on what the body can or can't do. The fact that now he is stronger in
the mind and much more focused on his goal of winning, has had a huge
impact physically.

Many people are cynical about him, but I don't think the link between a
strong mind and strong body should be overlooked, and nor should the fact
that Djokovic had stamina in the past - his retirements were weird
situations that seemed to happen for no real reason other than maybe he wasn
't feeling great that day and couldn't tough it out because his
determination was lacking. If people can lift cars off people through sheer
mind over matter, why can't someone get strong enough in the head to fight
through the pain barrier and get their second wind?
__________________
Federer, Djokovic, Delpo fan


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dpg
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发信人: dpg (肖浪--君子不党), 信区: Tennis
标  题: Re: 小德体力迷团
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed Jan 30 12:38:04 2013, 美东)

"The myth-
Novak was a weakling who could not last a 5th set"

(--by Tshooter)


I think it's a myth that this is a myth. Who that has followed his career
thinks he ever couldn't last 5 ?

He could from the early days.

First time I saw him was 2005 in New York. He won a long 5 set match over
Gael Monfils in round one. Later in the week played a long 5 setter against
Verdasco in round three-- just coming up short. But it was clear this was
one tough kid. He was only 18 at the time. 3rd round USO, 5 set battle. Not
too shabby.

Yes, he bent the time-out rules and he would default and he may have had
some allergy issues I don't know. But once he was committed to a match there
wasn't much question about his ability to fight through 5.

Tell you the match that I thought this kid is the real deal. 2007 USO. He
was only 20 then I believe. That five set win over Stapanek. It was about 4-
3/4 hours in the Sept NY humidity. Anyone that thought he couldn't win 5 set
matches after that match didn't see that match.
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dpg
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发信人: dpg (肖浪--君子不党), 信区: Tennis
标  题: Re: 小德体力迷团
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed Jan 30 12:39:31 2013, 美东)

Here are 2 (well thought IMO) posts from Veroniquem on the topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by veroniquem 
I looked into it. Let's kill those silly accusations once and for all.
This is a complete list of Djoko's retirements in his career. Here we go:

2003: Serbia F5
2004: none
2005: RG
2006: RG, Umag
2007: W
2008: DC 1st R, M-C
2009: AO
2010: Belgrade
2011: Cincy, DC Semi
2012: none


Myth #1: Djoko used to be a serial retirer: false: he's never retired more
than once or twice a year out of a full schedule.
Myth #2: He used to retire constantly and very suspiciously it all stopped
in 2011 when he became a superhuman: false: he retired twice in 2011 like he
did in 2006 and 2008.
Myth #3: He retired because he had no stamina (magic egg fixed that in 2011)
: false: none of his retirements had anything to do with going the distance
or stamina. More than half of his retirements (6 out of 11) happened on clay
: F5 2003, RG 2005, Umag 2006, RG 2006, M-C 2008, Belgrade 2010. They were
allergy related (clay dust causing breathing difficulties). They stopped
after 2010 when he discovered that those difficulties were exacerbated by
gluten. 1 was caused by extreme heat. (AO). 2 were caused by back problems:
W 2007, DC sf 2011. Cincy 2011: shoulder issue, was probably due to overplay
after his very long winning stretch. As early as USO 2005 and W 2006, Djoko
played 5 setters and played them out without giving up. Djoko has NEVER
retired because of tiredness due to length of match.
Myth # 4: Djoko has retired in all grand slams: false: he has never retired
at USO.

I'm gonna save this post and that should do it every time somebody tries to
bring up that BS nonsense about Djoko the weakling miraculously transformed
into indestructible Hercules in 2011. Enough is enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by veroniquem 
No problem. 5 setters Djoko has played in his career:

2005: played 4: 2 W/ 2 L
2006: played 3: 2 W/ 1 L
2007: played 3: 3 W/ 0 L
2008: played 1: 1 W/ 0 L
2009: none played
2010: played 6: 4 W/ 2 L
2011: played 1: 1 W/ 0 L
2012: played 5: 4 W/ 1 L

Fact #1: Djokovic has played 5 set matches on the tour since the age of 18.
Fact #2: He has always won more than he has lost except his first year (2005
) when it's a tie. (The 1st 2 players he beat in a 5 setter were Garcia-
Lopez and Monfils)
Conclusion: Djoko has always been a good 5 set player, before and after 2011.
Zagor: thanks! Maybe you can bookmark this one too!
__________________
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zhanglaosan
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发信人: zhanglaosan (张老三), 信区: Tennis
标  题: Re: 小德体力迷团
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed Jan 30 12:41:30 2013, 美东)

对啊,11年对木累就退休了
【 在 dpg (肖浪--君子不党) 的大作中提到: 】
: Here are 2 (well thought IMO) posts from Veroniquem on the topic.
: Quote:
: Originally Posted by veroniquem 
: I looked into it. Let's kill those silly accusations once and for all.
: This is a complete list of Djoko's retirements in his career. Here we go:
: 2003: Serbia F5
: 2004: none
: 2005: RG
: 2006: RG, Umag
: 2007: W
: ...................


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Gump
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发信人: Gump ((Forrest)), 信区: Tennis
标  题: Re: 小德体力迷团
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed Jan 30 12:50:44 2013, 美东)

说他体力突然好是因为小德11年前退赛不少,而2011美网把体力狂人纳达尔拖到没
体力,2012年澳网半决赛五盘大战后,少休息一天,决赛又是五盘大战,依然力克体力
狂人纳达尔。所以引起了众多纳达尔粉丝的怀疑.

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zhanglaosan
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发信人: zhanglaosan (张老三), 信区: Tennis
标  题: Re: 小德体力迷团
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed Jan 30 12:51:26 2013, 美东)

楼上有数据,呵呵,他11年和别的年份退赛频率一致
每年都是一到两次
【 在 Gump ((Forrest)) 的大作中提到: 】
: 说他体力突然好是因为小德11年前前退赛不少,而2011美网把体力狂人纳达尔拖到没
: 体力,2012年澳网半决赛五盘大战后,少休息一天,决赛又是五盘大战,依然力克体力
: 狂人纳达尔。 所以引起了众多纳达尔粉丝的怀疑.



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Gump
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发信人: Gump ((Forrest)), 信区: Tennis
标  题: Re: 小德体力迷团
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed Jan 30 12:52:52 2013, 美东)

纳达尔是参照,数据不是.

【 在 zhanglaosan (张老三) 的大作中提到: 】
: 楼上有数据,呵呵,他11年和别的年份退赛频率一致
: 每年都是一到两次



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zhanglaosan
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发信人: zhanglaosan (张老三), 信区: Tennis
标  题: Re: 小德体力迷团
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed Jan 30 12:55:39 2013, 美东)

潜台词就是,老子吃了多少年的药了,还被你给跑抽筋了,说你不吃药老子跳楼去?
哈哈
【 在 Gump ((Forrest)) 的大作中提到: 】
: 纳达尔是参照,数据不是.



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Gump
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发信人: Gump ((Forrest)), 信区: Tennis
标  题: Re: 小德体力迷团
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed Jan 30 13:05:02 2013, 美东)

是啊,很多人觉得小德体力竟然比体力狂人纳达尔还好,不可思议。
不过,据说小德坐氧气缸里的效果和马家军的高原训练效果差不多,都是提高血红素。
【 在 zhanglaosan (张老三) 的大作中提到: 】
: 潜台词就是,老子吃了多少年的药了,还被你给跑抽筋了,说你不吃药老子跳楼去?
: 哈哈



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zhanglaosan
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发信人: zhanglaosan (张老三), 信区: Tennis
标  题: Re: 小德体力迷团
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed Jan 30 13:05:34 2013, 美东)

马甲军是靠磕药,这个早就是铁定事实了
【 在 Gump ((Forrest)) 的大作中提到: 】
: 是啊,很多人觉得小德体力竟然比体力狂人纳达尔还好,不可思议。
: 不过,据说小德坐氧气缸里的效果和马家军的高原训练效果差不多,都是提高血红素。



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Gump
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发信人: Gump ((Forrest)), 信区: Tennis
标  题: Re: 小德体力迷团
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed Jan 30 13:08:28 2013, 美东)

不完全是吧?比如王军霞

【 在 zhanglaosan (张老三) 的大作中提到: 】
: 马甲军是靠磕药,这个早就是铁定事实了



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abesun
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发信人: abesun (动平衡), 信区: Tennis
标  题: Re: 小德体力迷团
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed Jan 30 13:36:50 2013, 美东)

ask his gf
【 在 dpg (肖浪--君子不党) 的大作中提到: 】
: 说小德有doping嫌疑的依据是,小德2010年之后体力突然好了,但是什么依据说他体力
:
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bostontennis
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发信人: bostontennis (bostontennis), 信区: Tennis
标  题: Re: 小德体力迷团
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed Jan 30 13:55:50 2013, 美东)

我觉得磕药的事应该这么看:查出来就是磕了,没查出来就是没磕。至于劳德为啥成绩
突然好了,老德给了个解释,你不信也没办法。其实比老德成绩好的还有,比如老费,
大家也没说啥。与其瞎猜谁谁磕药,不如监督ATP药检是不是合理,严格,公平。同样的
药检情况下,查出来就是磕了,没查出来就是没磕。
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AQ14
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发信人: AQ14 (魁猪), 信区: Tennis
标  题: Re: 小德体力迷团
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed Jan 30 14:29:51 2013, 美东)

老费的打法在那摆着, 体力含量跟那到小德没法比, 所以怀疑的很少。

俺到是觉得食物过敏原因有可能。 俺自己对一些东西过敏,之前之后对身体的差别还
是非常明显的。


【 在 bostontennis (bostontennis) 的大作中提到: 】
: 我觉得磕药的事应该这么看:查出来就是磕了,没查出来就是没磕。至于劳德为啥成绩
: 突然好了,老德给了个解释,你不信也没办法。其实比老德成绩好的还有,比如老费,
: 大家也没说啥。与其瞎猜谁谁磕药,不如监督ATP药检是不是合理,严格,公平。同样的
: 药检情况下,查出来就是磕了,没查出来就是没磕。



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AQ14
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发信人: AQ14 (魁猪), 信区: Tennis
标  题: Re: 小德体力迷团
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed Jan 30 14:37:48 2013, 美东)

他11年打地比赛比之前多很多。 而且直到9月大部分进决赛(包括四大赛中的三个
, 还都是5盘3制)所以他11年体力明显比原来提高这是他自己都承认的。

不过觉得小德过敏的原因是有可能的。 对哪道原来是觉得他8成, 现在95%是吃药
了。
【 在 zhanglaosan (张老三) 的大作中提到: 】
: 楼上有数据,呵呵,他11年和别的年份退赛频率一致
: 每年都是一到两次



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babyneo
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发信人: babyneo (wolf), 信区: Tennis
标  题: Re: 小德体力迷团
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed Jan 30 14:48:18 2013, 美东)

EPO and Blood Doping
Big 4都有嫌疑.
在有证据之前,只是嫌疑而已,仅次而已,粉丝不必如丧考妣。

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nicedayhere
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发信人: nicedayhere (Nice Day), 信区: Tennis
标  题: Re: 小德体力迷团
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed Jan 30 15:23:26 2013, 美东)

老德2010年还在发育,当时1米85,后来又长了3厘米,总算追上了莎娃...

发育其间,完全能加强体力的...
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MasterCup
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发信人: MasterCup (大师杯), 信区: Tennis
标  题: Re: 小德体力迷团
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Thu Jan 31 01:20:13 2013, 美东)

楼主还认真了,那几个人就是在那里搞笑呢。

小德主要就是心理强大了,以前一落后就经常想着要放弃,现在不到最后一个球就一直
在拼。其实你看这两年,小德有多少盘是悬崖边上“捞”回来的,放在以前简直难以想
象。
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MoonKnight
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发信人: MoonKnight (月亮在你的眼睛,太阳在我心), 信区: Tennis
标  题: Re: 小德体力迷团
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Thu Jan 31 12:54:22 2013, 美东)

11年比赛打得是不算多的,甚至是07年以来比赛打得最少的。

德子历年战绩
07 68-19
08 64-17
09 78-19
10 61-17
11 70-6
12 75-12

11年你觉得他打得多其实也只是他胜率比较恐怖,但其实atp 1000的9大赛事,
Djokovic 08年至今也一共只缺席过两个,11年的蒙卡和11年的上海。我记得他对外宣
称也是年初赢了三大赛事需要休息才没去的蒙卡,上海那里则是戴杯对菠萝的时候伤未
痊愈,当然顺便估计也休息了。

【 在 AQ14 (魁猪) 的大作中提到: 】
: 他11年打地比赛比之前多很多。 而且直到9月大部分进决赛(包括四大赛中的三个
: , 还都是5盘3制)所以他11年体力明显比原来提高这是他自己都承认的。
: 不过觉得小德过敏的原因是有可能的。 对哪道原来是觉得他8成, 现在95%是吃药
: 了。



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wellmoon
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发信人: wellmoon (梅东), 信区: Tennis
标  题: Re: 小德体力迷团
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Thu Jan 31 13:02:43 2013, 美东)

德黑要好好培养,不要这么快灭掉

【 在 MoonKnight (月亮在你的眼睛,太阳在我心) 的大作中提到: 】
: 11年比赛打得是不算多的,甚至是07年以来比赛打得最少的。
: 德子历年战绩
: 07 68-19
: 08 64-17
: 09 78-19
: 10 61-17
: 11 70-6
: 12 75-12
: 11年你觉得他打得多其实也只是他胜率比较恐怖,但其实atp 1000的9大赛事,
: Djokovic 08年至今也一共只缺席过两个,11年的蒙卡和11年的上海。我记得他对外宣
: ...................



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